Sometimes you're looking at one thing and another pops out at you....
Back in 2009, I was at the
'Old Indians Never Die' rally (
pictures), and I was looking up websites about it when I found this
one.
If you watch the video on this page you'll see a bike referred to a the
'Vindian', a Vincent engine in an Indian frame.
I thought I'd try and find out more about this bike, and that's where the story starts......
Article:
Not many bikers know about a specific 250cc V-Twin from INDIAN. We all associate the INDIAN Motorcycles with big V-Twin machines. In 1917,
Indian motorcycles had a 250cc side-valve flat-twin engine with the
cylinders lying for-and aft, magneto ignition and an outside flywheel.
Another 350cc single-cylinder Indian Prince was brought out in 1925 as a
counter blast to the small English machines, which were beginning to
gain a foothold in the American market. It was a more successful model
than the Light Twin and was evidently the outcome of a close study of
several imported machines. The engine had a detachable cylinder head.
The Prince was not very fast, but it was reliable and the Australian
rider Vic Barclay broke a couple of intercapital records on one. Then
came the 216cc single and 433 parallel twin which were introduced
designed for the Indian factory by two Dutchmen named Stockvis. Later on
the Stockvis brothers went to the States and became involved in the new
Indians which were a costly failure partly because of their low
performance and the fact that they were too highly built to be reliable.
And also partly because to buyers loyal to the brand, these bikes
didn't LOOK like Indians. At the same time, the Vincent was also
beginning to penetrate the U.S market following its capture of the
American speed record. In 1948 when P.C. Vincent was conducting a sales
campaign in North America, he met a very suave gentleman who happened to
be the head man in the Indian Company which was by then in very low
water. An English businessman named Brockhouse, who owned a number of
engineering companies, was anxious to obtain a controlling interest in
Indian, and the upshot of discussions by the three was that if the
Vincent unit could be fitted in the Chief frame without much alteration,
the result would be a very saleable machine with financial benefit to
all concerned..
After the legal issues were sorted out, a Chief was
shot over to Stevenage and as a preliminary it was road tested. Its 580
pound weight seemed enormous compared to the 450 pound Rapide and while
it could attain 88 mph for a short distance, the sustained maximum was
only about 80mph. After removing the engine and sawing off some unwanted
frame parts, the Vincent unit fitted in like a kernel in a nut. Engine
plates were used instead of the standard cylinder head brackets and the
existing foot boards and break pedal were retained but some cross-over
linkage had to be devised in order to use the near side heel-and-toe
clutch pedal as a gear change pedal. The dynamo remained in the original
position under the saddle and was belt-driven from a short shaft and
pulley.
The conversion job took only a couple of weeks and although
the finished article was not much lighter than the original, the
performance was vastly improved. Top speed went to 104 mph and it was as
fast as it used to be in top. Changing gear by foot instead of by hand
improved acceleration. Everything was in sync and to cope with the
increased output, orders had been doubled and material was beginning to
come in. But the money promised, failed to materialize on the grounds
that the plant and stock did not provide sufficient asset backing.
Vincent had thus been wangled into an intolerable position with the
possibility of an enforced liquidation and sale of the factory to the
highest bidder. As it was, the Indian Co. was forced to sell an
insignificant 250cc model to keep going at all finally the company was
acquired by Associated Motor Cycles in 1953 and the history of the
famous company founded by George Hendee, came to an end.
In the 1940s, the INDIAN brand was not going too
well and the then President of the company, Mr Rogers was convinced that
the old style of American motor-cycle with big V-twin engines and heavy
weight was doomed to play an ever decreasing role in the American
motorcycle scene. So he expressed an interest in the possibility of
fitting the highly acclaimed, 61 cubic inch Vincent Rapide engine in the
existing frame. This would give him a competitor for the more advance
Harley-Davidsons and allow the Chief to continue as the status leader of
the company's model line-up. It would also cost a fraction of the price
of developing a new engine from scratch. Rogers shipped a 1948 Chief
(without engine) to the Vincent works in Stevenage (UK) and the
legendary Phil Irving was put on the case. It was Phil Vincent's view
that by lowering the standard Rapide top gear below its existing 3.5:1
and increasing the compression ratio to around 8:1, the Rapide engine
would be able to shift the enormous weight of the standard Chief with
considerably more speed than it was accustomed to. The stock Indian
V-Twin was good for around 85 mph (a speed which decreased as the engine
heated up) and weighed around 580lbs. Vincent predicted a weight for
the "Vindian" of around 500lbs and a top speed of around 110 mph. Phil
Irving didn't share Phil Vincent's optimism. Concerns about plonking a
performance engine in the stock frame would have included misgivings
about aerodynamics, too. The fender valences on the standard bike caught
wind and created stability problems at low speeds. The Irving-built
Vindian, complete with giant tyres and mudguards, was tested
successfully at over 100 mph before it was sent to Indian's Springfield
plant in the US. According to Phil Vincent, by using "great care", the
Rapide engine could be slipped into the Chief frame without fouling
either frame or tank. Having actually tried to do it, Phil Irving must
have known this wasn't correct. How this came to being the truth was
because 40 years later, an Australian gentleman, Mr. Peter Arundel
attempted the same, only to make some interesting discoveries. The
engine doesn't fit. The frame bar running beneath the tank had t be
raised by four inches, necessitating gusset reinforcing around the
steering head area. There was also the need to create an indent in the
underside of the petrol tank to accommodate the left-hand carburettor.
The tank also had to be modified to allow for the right-hand rocker box.
These kinds of modifications would have provided a powerful
disincentive to Indian which, at the time, obviously felt its production
lines could have been put to better use.
So somewhere in history lies the hidden truth as why the Vindian never took into production existence.
However, that's not the end of the story......
Article
In late 1949, at the request of Indian President Ralph Rogers, the
Vincent HRD motorcycle company of England installed a 61-cubic inch
(1000cc) Vincent engine in a Chief frame. The “Vindian” would be an
Indian Chief with a Vincent Rapide engine.
It was believed the market could support the sale of 30 Vindians and
20 Indian-Vincents a week. A blue Chief was then shipped to England so
Vincent’s engineer, Phil Irving, could begin the development.
The problem with this ambitious plan was that it would require a huge
capital investment, and with both companies unable to support this
venture in the current climate, the only prototype that was completed
and test ridden had the motor removed and the Indian sent back to
America.
So
with three black and white photos of the original prototype in hand, a
replica Vindian was underway by club member Peter Birthisel who
completed the bike in 2007. The bike was built to be an exact copy with
original parts to stay true to the prototype.The motor was sourced by a
local Bundalong man, Max Vipond who was well known in the Vincent world.
Lindsay Urqhart and Jim Parker were involved with the project as were a
few other club members, and neighbours. The 48 Chief frame had to go
through some major alterations to fit the motor, so many hours were
spent of pulling the motor in and out of the frame to make the
adjustments to not only the frame but tank and every other part that had
to be shifted or remanufactured to suit the Vincent motor. The Vindian
has now travelled over 6000 miles including the Scotland/ Ireland tour
of 2009, and many local club rides.
After riding the bike, I feel that if the two companies had
completed the original project, the bike itself would have been a
success, as it is not only comfortable, but a very reliable bike to ride
in today's conditions.
And another
article:
The
Vindian:
A
swan song for two grand brands
(3/12/2008)
At
the end of the Second World War, Indian was down to only
one civilian model in its line, the Chief, and since the
arrival of Harley-Davidson's Knucklehead ten years earlier,
it had become a monument to styling and old technology.
After Ralph Rogers acquired Indian in November, 1945,
he set out to modernize the brand by acquiring Torque
Manufacturing, a company that had a range of overhead-valve
engines under development. When Indian introduced its
new Dyna-Torque models in 1949, it discontinued the venerable
Chief, which created uproar among its dealers. Long in
the tooth though it might have been the Chief still had
a following, and its absence left Indian dealers with
nothing directly competitive against Harley-Davidson,
their traditional rival. The Chief was brought back in
1950, but even when restyled and with improved suspension,
the old side-valve engine of the new Roadmaster Chief
was woefully out of date. Besides, by this time, Indian
had a disaster on its hands with its underdeveloped and
poorly-built Dyna-Torques, and the company desperately
needed something to improve its flagging fortunes.
In
the mean time, on the other side of the Atlantic,
Philip Vincent was looking for opportunities to improve
the sales of his motorcycles. Though they were widely
known as a benchmark of technology with a reputation for
speed, Vincent sales in America
had always been weak, due to a nearly non-existent dealer
network. Phil Vincent traveled to the United
States
early in 1949 to study the situation. Indian still had
a strong dealer network in need of a modern motorcycle
that would compete against Harley-Davidson's
new Panhead, and Vincent had just such a machine, badly
in need of dealers who would
deliver it into the vast American market. It could have
been a marriage made in heaven.
Vincent
met with Ralph Rogers and others at Indian. With John
Brockhouse – a British motorcycle entrepreneur – in the
mix, Vincent and Rogers came up with the audacious idea
of creating a new motorcycle that would combine Indian's
classic styling with Vincent's powerful engine. Seemingly,
it was a dream machine that would “run Harley-Davidsons
into the curb,” as Indian partisan Rollie Free was fond
of saying. With a modern touring big twin, Indian believed
it could sell 2,500 such machines a year, and this was
just
the kind of production that Phil Vincent needed to buoy
his company out of the financial crisis it had been in
for most of its existence.
Actually,
the plan called for two Indian-Vincent hybrids, one that
would appeal to the American touring market and one that
would attract more sporting riders. The “Vindian” would
be a Chief with a Vincent Rapide engine. The “Indian-Vincent”
would be a Rapide with Indian handlebars, controls, lighting,
and its shift and brake levers swapped to an American
configuration (pictured above is a reconstruction of the
Indian-Vincent prototype, flanked by two replicas of the
Vindian). It was believed the market could support the
sale of 30 Vindians and 20 Indian-Vincents a week, and
a blue Chief was shipped to England
so Vincent's engineer, Phil Irving, could begin development
(Pictured at the head of this story is Phil Irving aboard
the Vindian prototype).
The
problem with this ambitious plan was that it would require
a huge capital investment. In no way was Vincent capitalized
to produce 50 additional engines a week, and Indian, which
was already tapped out on its ill-fated Dyna-Torque project,
lacked the money to launch such a venture. Enter John
Brockhouse, the man with the money. Brockhouse did not
want to give the money – nearly £400,000 – to the
Indian Manufacturing Company, but required that a separate
corporation, the Indian Sales Company, be created to receive
the funds. Whether he planned it at the time, this corporation
would later be the vehicle through which Brockhouse would
take control of the bankr
upt
Indian and gain its dealer network for the benefit of
his collection of British brands.
In
the mean time, Phil Irving made quick work of prototype
development. The OHV Vincent engine was a tight fit in
the Indian frame, but the results were promising. The
motorcycle was 80 pounds lighter than a Chief, and reportedly
capable of 104 mph in the quarter mile. It was also a
fair handler, comfortable, and quiet (pictured above and
below is a replica of the Vindian). The Indian-Vincent
was built from a Touring Rapide. Wider American-style
handlebars were provided by Indian and the shift lever
was moved to the left and the brake to the right. The
use of Indian lighting on the prototype included the Chief-type
running light on the front fender, a nice touch. Both
prototypes were so promising that the British Board o
f
Trade approved transfer of Brockhouse's funds to America,
and Vincent moved ahead with ordering materials to ramp
up engine production.
However,
at this point, Brockhouse became cautious and demanded
an appraisal of Vincent assets to see if his risk was
adequately collateralized. It was not, he concluded, and
the whole project was scuttled, sending Vincent into receivership
and leaving Indian without a high-performance motorcycle
and no hope of competing with Harley-Davidson in the heavyweight
touring market. Did Brockhouse ever intend to go through
with the plan, or was it all a ruse to create the Indian
Sales Company through which he could later acquired full
control of Indian? Whatever his intentions at the time,
when Indian failed and manufacturing in Springfield ceased
in 1953, Brockhouse took control of the company's dealer
network, which he used to distribute Royal Enfield, Matchless,
and other British brands. In fact, Phil Vincent got his
wish of distributing his motorcycles through Indian's
dealer network, although by this time the network was
much diminished. Within three years his own production
would cease.
When
the Indian-Vincent joint venture was scuttled, the Vindian
Chief was stripped, its Indian engine reinstalled, and
it was sent back to Springfield.
Its Vincent engine went back to the donor bike (It is
rumored that Indian later assembled a replica of the Chief-Vincent
hybrid in America).
The Indian-Vincent Rapide was converted back to its standard
configuration and kept by Phil Irving as a personal motorcycle,
with a Blacknell sidecar attached. Irving
took it back to Australia
when he returned in October, 1949. In 2001, Aussie Phil
Pilgrim bought a Vincent in pieces with no idea that it
was the same Phil Irving motorcycle that had been used
for the Indian-Vincent prototype. Later, through research
into serial numbers, he co
nfirmed
this fact, and decided to restore it in the configuration
of the Indian-Vincent prototype (pictured here). Note
the Indian running light on the front fender.
There
are also in Australia two Vindian Chief replicas. One,
owned by Peter Arundel, was built about ten years ago,
and the other, owned by Peter Birthisel, was constructed
within the last year. Pictured above are Phil Pilgrim
(right) and his Indian-Vincent reconstruction, and Peter
Birthisel, owner of the Vindian replica pictured in
this story.
To
read Bill Gordon's story about the Vindian, click here.
To read another treatment, including a description of
the construction of Peter Arundel's replica, click here.
To read about a latter-day Vindian on the Cycle World
Staff Blog, click here. (Note: the links don't seem to work - N.)
What
if?
How
would motorcycle history have changed had the Indian-Vincent
project come to fruition? While its planners believed
the Vindian Chief would have been the better seller, in
hindsight one might argue that it could have been the
leaner, sportier Indian-Vincent Rapide that would have
made the greater impact. Consider that after the war,
Harley-Davidson was desperately trying to develop a modern
motorcycle to compete head-to-head against the British
“lightweights” that were flooding the American market.
The result was the Model K, which proved an under-achiever,
even after being hopped up through its KH and KHK permutations.
The
K was only a stopgap project, intended to buy time for
development of the ambitious KL, a high-cam V-twin (sound
familiar?). With disappointment, Harley dealers saw the
KL project bumped from a '53 introduction to 1954, then
from 1954 to '55. The truly “modern Harley” never appeared,
but was eventually abandoned due to insurmountable overheating
problems and escalating development cost. With its dream
KL on the scrap heap, Harley-Davidson installed overhead
valve heads on its K and introduced it as the XL Sportster
in 1957. The Sportster, although it began life as an engineering
compromise on an unpromising platform, proved spectacularly
successful. It could outrun its British competitors, mainly
because it had them outsized by over 200ccs, and it proved
robust enough to handle a lot of heavy tuning. On fuel,
it became the great dragster and flat-out speed machine
of its era.
But
think what might have happened had Indian introduced two
1,000cc overhead-valve models as early as 1950, hot on
the heels of the Panhead and seven years ahead of the
Sportster. The Vindian could have been the benchmark for
luxury touring, decades ahead of comparable FLH development,
and the Indian-Vincent would have been a sporty speedster
that might have rendered all of Harley's K/KL/XL development
quite pointless. Such motorcycles in the American market
might have even restored Indian's reputation and sales
to the point that it might have survived the teething
problems with its Dyna-Torque motorcycles. In fact, many
Indian enthusiasts insist that the 500cc Warrior TT was
a good, competitive motorcycle, but it alone was too late
and not enough to overcome the bad reputation created
by Indian's self-destructing Dyna-Torque 220cc singles
and 440cc twins.
Indeed,
an Indian-Vincent marriage might have changed history
and created a long future for both companies. But of course,
this is fantasy. Real history went in a different and
less happy direction for both of these legendary brands.
Our
thanks to Sid Biberman and Phil Pilgrim for assistance
with research for this story. Photo of Phil Irving provided
by Sid Biberman. Photos of the Indian-Vincent Rapide recreation
provided by Phil Pilgrim. Photos of the Vindian Chief
replica provided by Biberman and Pilgrim.
Note
to readers: Phil Pilgrim has an interest in selling his
Indian-Vincent. Serious parties can contact him at unionjack@unionjack.com.au
.
